Page 7 – Comments for “UC Freshmen Admissions Calculator”

Comments (Page 7)

Fri, 17 Nov 2017 19:37:02 GMT

Hi Again!

I'm hoping to get into EECS at Berkeley and am a little considered about whether my grades are good enough. I'm currently a junior and will probably end up with 2 B's in APUSH and AP Physics C first semester. I'm afraid that this is a downward trend. During sophomore, I only got one B (Spanish). I'm also particularly scared about the B in physics since I'm applying to engineering. How much will these B's hurt me? My SAT is 1510 (790 Math, 720 Verbal), which is better than my 1490 last time. I also have great engineering extracurriculars and lots of leadership. I'm hoping that these things can make up.

Roger: For what it’s worth, I feel like most freshman EECS admits didn’t even take AP Physics C Mechanics or E/M. Good luck!

Fri, 10 Nov 2017 21:55:51 GMT

Can u please update this calculator with 2016 data?

Roger: Check out my response to “Leslie” below.

Sophomore Blunder Boy
Tue, 07 Nov 2017 07:50:39 GMT

Lol damn I am regretting my high school choices. I am a current college freshman and according to this calculator, I had an 84% chance of getting into my dream school (UCSB) with my Gpa and ACT score. However, I had some blunders sophomore year which were AP Chem in which I failed and H Alg 2 Trig in which I got a C both semesters (retook AP Chem and one semester of Alg 2 Trig and got an A in both). My gpa ended pretty high (4.2) because those were my only bad grades but I think because of those things I ended up getting rejected as a Bio major. I'm not mad at where I ended up tho and hopefully I can transfer to UCSB in two years :)

Tue, 07 Nov 2017 00:41:34 GMT

Hi Roger, Does it make sense to apply at all to UC Riverside with a 2.92 GPA? My daughter usually has Bs and As (Irvine school) but suffered some challenges in Sophomore year, resulting in a bunch of Cs in her 10th grade. Although there is improvement in junior and senior year, (especially significant improvement in Math an science, her otherwise poor subjects) gpa remains low. Thank you.

Roger: I don’t know anything about UC Riverside, other than having visited there once. However, the minimum required GPA for UC school is 3.0 for California residents and 3.4 for out-of-state students.

SV Visor
Thu, 02 Nov 2017 20:09:50 GMT

Hi, I have a ACT composite of 36 (yeah, really psych'd about it!! :) SAT Math L2 800, Physics 700, 25 A's, 5 B's and 12 UC honors (including first sem. of 12th). and have a 4.10 UC GPA. I am really interested in Berkeley's new MET (Management, Entrepreneurship and Technology) program? What are my chances. It's not listed as one of the options. All the others say 'Holy smokes'. :) Thanks.

Roger: I’ve never heard of that program. Is it really competitive? It sounds like you’d be an excellent candidate. Anyway, good luck!

Mon, 30 Oct 2017 03:10:30 GMT

Hey Roger,

On this program it says that my chances for UCSB admission is "Holy Smokes!" while it says it is 33% on the PrepScholar admission calculator. Any idea as to why there is such a drastic deviance?

3.77 GPA, 1450 SAT

Thank you!

Roger: I can’t say for sure, but I’d guess that it’s because your SAT score is quite high in comparison to other UCSB admits, whereas your GPA is quite low (I’m assuming that 3.77 is your weighted/capped UC GPA).

Neel Nawathey
Mon, 23 Oct 2017 03:16:53 GMT

What year's stats are these calculations based on?

Roger: Check out my answer to “Leslie” below.

Wed, 04 Oct 2017 01:09:41 GMT

Hi, thanks for the calculator, very handy. My son's hs calculated his uc gap lower than we did b/c they insist only 4 semesters of UC approved H classes can be counted from each 10th and 11th grade. I thought only a max of 4 could come from 10th, but, say you only had 2 semesters of AP Euro sophomore year, but had 6 semesters of H classes junior year(APUSH, APEngLang, and Chem H) you could use the 2 semesters from 10th and 6 semesters from 11th to max out at 8 semesters. In other words, I thought the 4 semesters max was only about 10th grade, seems like if you wanted to, even all 8 semesters could come from 11th grade. Who's right?

Roger: Check out this FAQ (specifically, the section labeled “What courses are used to determine a student’s GPA for freshman admission to UC?”). As far as I know, the restriction of 4 semesters of honors courses only applies to the 10th grade.

Rachel Hale
Sun, 24 Sep 2017 05:53:40 GMT

Hi Roger,
My dream school is UC Davis, but I'm not sure if I can get in. I have a 3.88 unweighted GPA, but I have a pretty low sat score (it's a 1220). I am planning on retaking it soon, but in case I do not improve do you think it is possible I get in given my statistics? It can also be noted that I have been secretary of a club for 2 years and have been participating in that club for 4 years. I have also been a part of national honors society for 3 years and I often tutor other kids at my school. I do not have a job, unless babysitting counts and I often spend my summers at my grandparents house helping them out.

Roger: I think most high schoolers don’t have jobs, and it’s not exactly a strong bonus to have had one. I don’t know anything about UC Davis (see my reply to the next comment below), but good luck!

Wed, 20 Sep 2017 19:38:52 GMT

Hi Roger,
I got my SAT scores which are not great. I scored 1170. My high school GPA 3.39 unweighted and 3.6 weighted. I am president of two clubs, captain of dance group, coached high school for two years and asst. coach for youth club, tutor, choreographer, soccer ref. for club, Volunteer for couple of non profit organization. Do you think I am able to get into Davis as student athlete?

Roger: I have no idea, sorry. I’ve never been to UC Davis, I didn’t apply to UC Davis, and I’ve never spoken to anybody regarding admissions to UC Davis. (I’m a computer programmer, not a college admissions counselor.) Anyway, good luck!

Sun, 10 Sep 2017 02:18:08 GMT

Hey Roger, I was wondering if you could maybe add Bellarmine College Prep to your list. We are the oldest private highschool west of the Mississippi, our robotics team recently won the world championship in China or something, and we have competed in the D1 state title game in at least 1 sport for like the last 10 years. Additionally, this would acrue some points with college admissions officers, who us students are told look very favorably on our school's graduating class. Could you include us on the list?

Roger: The calculator asks for your high school in order to factor in the school’s API score (specifically the 10-point API score rank scale), which has a small statistical impact on admission rates. However, the API score is a imprecise measurement that wouldn’t capture something like the reputation of a particular private school. So even if your school were included, it likely wouldn’t affect the calculator’s result very much, because the calculator doesn’t actually know much about each individual school aside from its API score rank. Let me know if this answers your question.

Thu, 07 Sep 2017 22:23:48 GMT

Hi Roger,

my name is Tomas I'm high school graduate student from Argentina and I'm looking to apply to UC Berkeley next year make it into the EECS Program. I've excelled in all of my sciences classes and have a 3.7 GPA but my ACT score was 30 composite -the reading part dragged my score really hard-. I'm in a bit of a disadvantage because extracurricular courses and activities I've done in school are not accounted for in my grades. There is also no AP here in Argentina. However, I'm an entrepreneur and a software developer and I'm working with two partners on a digital website that will provide specialized servicies for local companies and it's expected to be launched to the market by the end of this year. I've also landed an competitive internship in the National Nuclear Regulatory Authority for my outstanding highschool qualifications and I'm currently employed there. I couldn't excel in my exams, but I do have other attributes that stand out. I've also considered UCLA among other UC campuses. In your honest opinion, do I stand any chances against the very tough competition out there? Thanks, Tomas.

Roger: I have limited experience with international students in EECS, but I think they were generally top students from their area and scored competitively on American standardized tests despite being non-native English speakers. That being said, I think your personal business and your internship are certainly extraordinary and will help you stand out from other international applicants. Good luck!

Tue, 29 Aug 2017 06:39:49 GMT

Hi Roger,
My dream is to get into Berkeley EECS. I just began my junior year at high school in California and find that this year will play a critical role. My new SAT score is 1490 (770 math, 720 verbal) and my ACT is 32 (34 math, 31 english, 30 reading, 33 science). I got an 800 on SAT Math II and plan to take SAT Physics II this year and score at least a 780. For GPA, I should have around a 3.95 uw, 4.6-4.7 w, and 4.3 uc. I am also taking one of the most rigorous courseloads at my school. I'm also taking online courses to further my learning. For extracurriculars, I am president of the robotics team and have shown tremendous leadership here, founder of the TSA club, founder of entrepreneurship club, and a leader of the genetics club. I am also doing two internships at the moment (both involving software development, data science, and machine learning) and plan to contact some professors within the coming weeks to ask for help with a science fair project. I also plan to seek out two more internships next summer and maybe a small summer program like MIT launch. I also do a lot of personal coding projects. Though I do competitions, I feel like this is where my downside is. I haven't won any awards and can't guarantee that I will. If I lack awards, will my application be affected? I mean, I'm hard-working, showing ability, and highly passionate about my areas of interest, but by no means exceptional. Do I stand a good chance even if there's a chance I'll have 0 awards? Thx!

Roger: Well, I think you’re an exceptional candidate and have a great chance at getting accepted.

Wed, 23 Aug 2017 22:41:25 GMT

1510 SAT score (790 Math, 720 Eng) but I have 3.69 UC GPA. How does that look?

Sun, 20 Aug 2017 22:24:28 GMT

7%?!?!?!?!? MYASS

Mon, 14 Aug 2017 21:00:36 GMT

Hey, I have a 1500 SAT (800 math, 700 Reading and Writing) as well as a 4.3-4.4 UC GPA (haven't finish school so don't know)
How do I look?

Roger: Sounds pretty good to me.

Chris Blackburn
Wed, 02 Aug 2017 02:29:38 GMT

Hey Roger,

I'm only choosing 2 APs Junior year (since I have SATs and others to deal with), but will have 4 APs senior year. Do UCs consider any part of senior year, like first semester of senior year, at all? Thanks!

Roger: The UC’s will ask for your senior year courseload during the application (you’ll mark them as “incomplete” or “planned”). If you make any changes to your courseload, you’re required to notify them. I think that strongly implies that your senior year courses do matter.

Fri, 21 Jul 2017 21:25:02 GMT

These calculators may/ may not be helpful, but at the end of the day stress you out more than needed. I am currently an incoming freshman to the UC system and this calculator did nothing but stress me out and make me cry. I got into my dream school (berkeley), but no credit is due to the calculator, its all to me and my family/ friends/ mentors. Those are the people who helped me throughout the college process! Talk to a college counselor or maybe an older sibling and dont let these results determine where you apply! I didnt, and look at me now! Thats why i suggest you turn away now! leave this page alone and believe in yourself!! goodluck in the college process and life! (:

Roger: Congrats on being accepted!

Fri, 14 Jul 2017 19:59:11 GMT

I noticed that there is not a section where I can put my sat subject tests. Do the subject tests not factor into the admissions process at all?

Roger: The data used to create this calculator didn’t include statistics about SAT Subject Tests. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t considered for admissions.

Ryan Alvin
Sat, 08 Jul 2017 02:16:43 GMT

Hi Roger,

I am becoming a senior this year and plan on applying to colleges this fall. My New SAT score is a 1410 and I have a UC gpa of 4.05. I am the founder and president of the robotics club for three years now. Been playing Varsity tennis; this will be my fourth year. And I am an eagle scout. I am going for Biomedical engineering and the calculator said I only have a 23 percent chance of getting into UCLA. Do you think that is an accurate calculation. Thank you.

Ryan Alvin

Roger: Hi Ryan. I don’t actually have any experience with college admissions, other than that I applied to college once myself. So I’d be skeptical taking my own advice. Anyway, I think your UC GPA is lower than that of the average UCLA admit. I don’t know what your courseload was like, but if it’s as rigorous as your extracurriculars, I think you’ll probably be admitted to UCLA. The GPA is useless without the added context of your transcript, after all. Good luck!

Fri, 23 Jun 2017 01:11:20 GMT

I've noticed that a 34 ACT/3.7 GPA is at 17% and a 35/3.7 is at holy smokes for Berkley. Are you sure this is accurate?

Roger: Applicants that score a 35 or higher on the ACT have almost always been accepted. In comparison, a 3.7 GPA is very low for Berkeley. That probably explains those results.

Fri, 16 Jun 2017 18:59:49 GMT

Hey Roger, would it be possible to change the calculator so people can enter the new SAT. I don't think anyone uses the old SAT reasoning test at this point. Love your site; I'm a big fan!

Roger: It’s on my to-do list. The problem is that there’s no new data available about UC admissions. This calculator was originally created using data from a program called “UC Statfinder”, which generated tables of admission rates based on different factors (GPA, SAT/ACT, major, race, gender, high school, etc.). That program has since been shut down. There isn’t a replacement source of data with as much detail as Statfinder had. But even if there were, it would take a few years for data about admissions based on the new SAT to appear. If I added support for the new SAT test today, it would be based on the College Board’s own SAT score converter, since no new data is available. As a stopgap measure, you could convert your score using that calculator, and then insert it here. Glad you like the site! Let me know if you have any other feedback.

Thu, 15 Jun 2017 15:36:19 GMT


Wed, 14 Jun 2017 22:09:56 GMT

Hi Roger,

Can you add Pacific Ridge School to your list of high schools in California? Pacific Ridge is a private school with 10 years of history and 7 cohorts of high school graduates since 2011, and the last graduating class had 87 students.



Roger: The list of high schools is there to make adjustments according to the school’s California Academic Performance Index (API) score. It’s an score that applies primarily to public schools, not private schools. Additionally, the API scoring system was abandoned in 2013. Your school doesn’t have an API score, but you can get a similar result by selecting another top school (or just by picking “CA Private School”).

Applied to UCs
Tue, 23 May 2017 01:49:37 GMT

ayyyy.... roger i got into berkeley

thx 4 ur calculator...

Roger: Congrats!

GPA tho
Tue, 16 May 2017 23:13:16 GMT

why all these people putting their weighted GPA's? colleges just change them anyway, and you're weighted will always be much higher than your unweighted if you take harder classes like me

Wed, 10 May 2017 05:02:31 GMT


Wed, 10 May 2017 04:59:45 GMT


Thu, 20 Apr 2017 03:38:28 GMT

Hey Roger!
I was wondering how community college courses that you took in the summer as a high school student would count in your UC gpa. Would the courses that you took in the summer just count as an extra semester?

Roger: Check out this FAQ.

Eve Carlson
Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:36:54 GMT

Students, please go to the individual U.C. web sites and search for statistics on the last admitted class. That will give you the best idea of your chances at a particular school. This calculator will not provide accurate results and will OVERESTIMATE your chances of admission, because it is based on data from 8 years ago when admission to the UCs was much less competitive.

The levels of GPA, SAT scores, etc. required to be admitted to any UC have increased DRAMATICALLY since 2009. I think this statement from 2/1/17 is totally inaccurate: "Just because the admit rate is declining doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s any harder to be admitted. As a whole, I don’t think the standards for top UC schools have changed very much and the changes are unlikely to affect anybody except the borderline applicants." The standards have changed quite a lot and it affects everyone who applies, even if they have stellar GPAs and scores.

This statement is also inaccurate: "UC Berkeley is the best! UCLA is second. The rest of them are just a big pile somewhere at the bottom of the list." The ranking would differ, depending on what criteria you use to decide (admissions rates, GPAs/scores of admitted students, etc.) It is entirely inaccurate that the other U.C.s are "just a big pile somewhere at the bottom of the list." U.C. Davis, U.C. Irvine, and U.C.S.D. are considerably harder to get into than U.C.S.B. or U.C.S.C., which are, in turn, harder to get into than U.C.R. or U.C.M.

I encourage you to take down this calculator which is misleading students who are going through an emotionally difficult time. The main problem is that the calculator will be systematically OVERESTIMATING the chances of every student who used it, because it is based on statistics from a time when the admissions standards were much lower. Some of these students are so pressured and distressed that they are at risk of suicide, and something like disappointment over actual admissions results (when they expected better based on your calculator) could raise their risk of suicide.

Saying that you are only a programmer doesn't negate the harm you could do to a student who doesn't read or understand all of the caveats. Clearly, many students are leaving comments indicating that they believe the information on chances of admission are bona fide.

Tue, 18 Apr 2017 00:38:37 GMT

I have a 3.69 uc gpa and a SAT of 1380 also I took 4 AP classes sophomore and junior year. What are my chances at UCSB, UCI, and UCD?

Fri, 07 Apr 2017 06:49:42 GMT

I used your calculator and it was helpful but at the sometime your calculator brings out negative thoughts for students like me. Questioning, ourselves if wether we will actually even have a shot in getting accepted to our "dream college" and I understand your calculator is meant to help students but are you really helping? Are you giving them 100% actuate information and statistics? I'm leaving you this comment because I want other students to keep aiming for their goals in getting accepted to their dream UC even if your calculator tells them they have a 10% :( low chance in getting accepted because I've read the comments and one student said they had a 11% in getting accepted to ucla but actually did get accepted & another student had a about a 20-30% in getting accepted to riverside but didn't. Personally, I think you should check your calculator because I believe it's not giving out 100% accurate information and letting students hopes down. I understand that you are human and we all make humanly mistakes but one mistake we shouldn't make is giving people false hope or taking hope. It was probably not your intention in doing that but I just wanted to get it off my chest and give you my perspective and possibly others perspectives.

Roger: This calculator is somewhat old and unreliable. That’s partially because it was based on data released by the UC Office of the President about admissions to UC schools in 2009. Since then, UCOP has shut down their statistics search program, which prevents me from updating the calculator. But of course, nobody can tell you if you’d be accepted into a UC school based on your GPA and test scores alone. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I’ll consider if this calculator can be updated in some other way, and if not, I’ll consider whether it’s worth leaving online.

Thu, 23 Mar 2017 03:17:14 GMT

I am really worried about my admissions at Berkeley. I am a recent immigrant from India. And have gone through quiet a few social issues. I have a lot of ECs, including international competitions. Here are my stats:

SAT - 1150
Class Rank - 1/15
GPA - 4.24

I got into UC Davis, Merced and Irvine. But, got rejected from UCLA. Do you think I have a good possibility of getting in?

Roger: I’m not too familiar with the new SAT scoring system, but your SAT score seems much lower than any UC Berkeley admit I’ve met, international students included. Nonetheless, good luck!

Shocked Student
Mon, 20 Mar 2017 06:42:00 GMT

Also, I got a Holy Smokes rating for Santa Cruz and Riverside and was rejected from both of them. Eesh!

Shocked Student
Mon, 20 Mar 2017 06:40:44 GMT

This calculator gave me an 11% chance of being admitted to UCLA, so you can imagine my shock when I was accepted!! So if anyone is getting discouraged by a low percentage chance, remember: a slim chance is still a chance!

Roger: Congrats!

Fri, 17 Mar 2017 03:59:32 GMT

Hi I am wondering the chances of me getting into any other UC's besides Merced and Riverside. My stats feel so crappy and Im planning to take City College classes to boost it by 0.10 GPA over the summer.
Class ranking-63/312
SAT: 1300
Unweighted GPA 3.92
Weighted GPA 4.0
Passed AP World exam with a 3. AP Chinese with a 3.
100 Community service hours with marathons.
3 Years Varsity Volleyball team.
Trying to major in computer engineering or science.
Senior classes- AP Computer Science, AP Calculus AB. Environmental Science, Chemistry, American Democracy, English.
After realizing my class ranking today I feel like the lost all hope of applying to a UC.

Is there anything I can do to make my application look a little better?
Thanks for all the input, I really appreciate it

Roger: Well, you sound like a great candidate to me, except for your AP scores. Are you currently a junior? Is that why you’ve only taken 2 AP courses?

Sikander Batra
Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:22:07 GMT

UCLA comes out in 3 days!!!! Right?

Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:03:36 GMT

Hi Roger, I got a 27 on the ACT and a 10/12 on the ACT writing. I have a UC GPA of 4.23 and have never received a B in a single class in high school. I'm on the school newspaper, play soccer, tutor, and do community service every week. My public high school is also ranked 10/10 as your calculator says and it says HOLY smokes to me getting into UCLA but I'm scared my ACT is too low. Do you think I still have a chance? I'm just a bad standardized tester and scared it'll hurt me for admissions.

Roger: I think you’re asking the wrong person. I don’t actually know anything about getting into college, other than my experiences 5 years ago when I applied myself.

Joe Schmoe
Tue, 14 Mar 2017 01:04:45 GMT

Considered an "Extremely Qualified" applicant to UC Davis and I was waitlisted - take this with a grain of salt

Sat, 04 Mar 2017 21:56:03 GMT

The College Board provides a conversion of new and old SAT scores.

Sat, 04 Mar 2017 21:17:44 GMT

Hi Roger,

Is it possible to update your calculator for new SAT? i.e., two SAT scores rather than three.

Roger: Maybe. I’d rather update the calculator to use more recent admissions data, but adding support for the new SAT scoring system may help for now. I’ll think about it.

Nick NJ
Sun, 19 Feb 2017 19:44:32 GMT


I have 27 A's and 6 B's (UC W/C GPA, 4.06, trimester system), 34 ACT, 750 Lit and 760 Math 2, 12 Honors/Ap courses) from a competitive private school on the east coast, interesting and varied EC's, decent essays, Asian. Calculator gave a 34% chance. Please chance me.


Roger: I’m a computer programmer. I don’t know anything about college admissions. But anyway, you didn’t mention which UC school you’re aiming for. If it’s UC Berkeley, then I think you have a decent shot.

Sun, 19 Feb 2017 00:21:28 GMT


Recently, there was a UCSD tour for people they considered to be VIP applicants, and I wasn't invited.

It might be a stretch, but I was wondering if you could maybe assess how much lower my chances are of getting in now?

- 4.25 GPA, 1350 New SAT Score, 160 hours of volunteer service


Roger: I have no idea. Your GPA and SAT score seem pretty alright to me. But I feel like you might have some misconceptions of who I am exactly.

Thu, 02 Feb 2017 02:20:47 GMT

Hey Roger, you commented below that you used stats from 2009 to make this calculator. After 8 years, college admissions have become much more competitive. How accurate would you say this calculator is as of 2017?

Roger: I think (1) the UC’s are admitting a lot more out of state students (relative to all admits) than they have in the past, and (2) the admit rate for the top UC’s has been steadily dropping. But (2) is a combination of a huge increase in the number of applicants and the university’s inability to admit proportionally more students. Just because the admit rate is declining doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s any harder to be admitted. As a whole, I don’t think the standards for top UC schools have changed very much and the changes are unlikely to affect anybody except the borderline applicants. On the other hand, this calculator was never that accurate in the first place and I honestly don’t know much about any of the UC schools except UC Berkeley.

Sat, 28 Jan 2017 03:49:39 GMT

How much do SAT subject tests affect admission chances?
Could you rank the most critical subject tests (the most important ones)?
Why when people take ACT they don't take subject tests?
What is a "research institute"?

Roger: I feel like the SAT Subject Tests are more or less the same as their equivalent AP tests (I thought the SAT Subject Tests were actually easier). I took a few SAT Subject Tests (Math II, Biology M, Chinese, Physics) because everybody else was taking them. You should probably pick whichever ones you think are most relevant to your intended college/major. You can take both the ACT and SAT Subject Tests, as far as I know.

John Mendoza
Sun, 22 Jan 2017 02:41:05 GMT

Oops, Correction:

24 A's + 8 AP's = 4.33

19 A's + 8 AP's = 4.42

I thought more A's would increase the GPA.

Roger: An “A” grade is worth 4 points. If you have more A’s, then your GPA will become closer and closer to 4.0.

John Mendoza
Sun, 22 Jan 2017 02:38:04 GMT

Hi Roger.

I put in 24 A's and 8 AP's, the GPA calculator for Berkeley gives 4.25
where as
19 A's and 8 AP's, the GPA calculator for Berkeley gives 4.33

Is the Calculator correct ? Thanks

Rakai Lee
Wed, 18 Jan 2017 03:35:57 GMT


Sikander Batra
Sat, 14 Jan 2017 11:18:51 GMT

Help sir!

I have 36 on ACT and 4.5 UC W GPA.


I have very strong ECs however I have been waitlisted for another semester!

Please can you contact the admissions and ask them what is holding up?

Roger: I just got off the phone with the President God-Emperor King of Admissions. You got waitlisted because they gave all the other students a head start so you don’t beat them too badly.

Wow, sir. Please let them know the UC Berkeley remains my top choice! Thanks :)

Sikander Batra
Thu, 12 Jan 2017 13:01:54 GMT

Help sir!

I have 36 on ACT and 4.5 UC W GPA.


I have very strong ECs however I have been waitlisted for another semester!

Please can you contact the admissions and ask them what is holding up?

Roger: I just got off the phone with the President God-Emperor King of Admissions. You got waitlisted because they gave all the other students a head start so you don’t beat them too badly.

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